Ok, since everybody has said "aye" I am inclined to favor their request and write a new post.
Can't think of anything to say though. Summit was so awesome it is beyond words. At least MY vocabulary is insufficient to describe the amazingness of our trip. Anyway, hope everyone had a wonderful summer and was not too sad to see it come to an end. Be encouraged! School can be fun if you choose to make it fun! :) (I speak mainly to myself). ♫Wiskey for my man, beer for my horses!♫ ooops... sorry JC is listening to country music.
I watched Last of the Mohicans last night. What a depressing movie! Those people need to get a life! The music was nice though! Forget the movie, get the soundtrack.
♫I'm gonna miss her! When I get back home. Right now I'm on this lake shore, sitting in the sun!♫ oh... there I go again. Such a funny song if you've never heard it.
Well, I can think of nothing else with which to entertain you. So, have a good life!
♫o look-ee there...I've gotta bite!♫
~MJ~
140 comments:
Welcome home!!! I am not sure if I wan't to see that movie!!??!!?? I have heard that the music is pretty good. See ya tammarow
time for a new post.
lol jaron.
Oh i know. Like why did the young indian dude have to die? (he was the coolest person in that movie) and then when the girl he loved saw him get killed and fall she goes and jumps off the mountain also???? what???? so dumb. At least that bad indian got killed in the end.
Are you OK Missy? I wonder sometimes... : D
Yea, those were to two people who needed to get a life.
JARON!!! What if I don't feel like it?
~MJ~
IDk i liked the indian kid. He loved the girl and sacraficed himself for her. no problem there, but for her to throw away her life cause he died was just stupid. especially considering she hadn't given him a second look until then.
I HATE TYPOS!!!
Anyway,
...
Hey Missy!
I stuck my tongue at you when you weren't looking :,D
How did you get those musical notes in your post?
Yea, I know I should be able to figure it out on my own but I'm too lazy right now to go looking for answers when they're right there in front of me ;)
It its REALLY good to have the entire Watkin Clan back where they belong!
TTYL,
~Rob
Robby! That is so childish! Keep your tongue in your mouth! :)
Alt 14 for the musical notes. ♫
Hannah: I've never been ok in my life! :) I've always been wonderful!!
I CAN'T WAIT FOR NATIONAL TREASURE 2 TO COME OUT!!!
Oh BTW, you'll never believe this but I LOVE my algebra class! I actually enjoy doing Algebra problems!!! I'm going to take a quiz!!!!!! YAY!
Wow, more power to you, who's your teacher?
I like how you start your post with "I have nothing to say" and then go on for several paragraphs ;)
Guess what I'm listening to? I'll give you a hint: "dee dee dee da dee dee do do, dee da dee dee do"
a small child trying to say daddy?
Trey you crack me up!!! :):):)
My math teacher is Scott Travis. I think the reason I like it so much is because its an online class and there's all this cool stuff I can do. Like, if I'm having trouble with a certain practice problem I can click Help Me Solve This (WONDERFUL thing)and it'll walk me through it. I can also click Similar Problem and do more and more of the same thing! Fun fun fun! I still stink at Algebra but I'm getting better! And I'm having fun doing it!
~MJ~
haha Trey your out of it... Thats funny! He was referring to a song on Brookes blog. ITs really catchy you might say but the fact that its catchy is a bad thing...
Ahhh that is a pretty sweet song. I can't wait for national treasure 2 to come out as well!!!
Would someone like to engage me in a deep and meaningful conversation?
sure what about???
I would LOVE to Jaron! Name the topic...
On the existence of a certain species of crab.
Ok, that sounds like a George topic... (that was his name wasn't it?)
How bout this: "Why are we here? Why did God create humans?"
ooohh good one John. hhhmmm, I might need a little help on this one. oh wait... God created humans because he was lonely. and He wanted to have a relationship with us, and were are are to glorify Him in all we do.
how does thats sound? O summit scholars.
aaaaaagh can't wait till saturday!!!!
marissa: you need to get some of those "deep" questions from your summit notebook and post them.
or any body who has one.
God was not lonely! God would have been just fine without humans but he did it to further promote HIS glory. (not that it needed promoting)
You just defeated yourself! God was not lonely, even if he was he could have just created angels to keep Him company, but He wasn't lonely. So why would he create us to promote His glory if it didn't need promoting?
Ummm... let's see here... This may not be of any consolation but I do believe it is written, "that we shall be greaten then even the angles."
I just think it is amazing that God would choose to create us then humble Himself by becoming one of us then sacrificing Himself for us for our eternity for His Glory!
Wow! that really was hard to say in one breath...
But then again this all could be one huge computer matrix and the planet is really being run by homicidal artificially intelligent
robots who use us for nothing more than a power source because we blotted out the sun...
Just thinking...
I mean how does one really define reality anyway? I mean everything we do: see, hear, touch, smell, and taste are nothing more than electrical singles being interpreted by our brains.
So one could easily say that they are just dreaming or being dreamed up.
And yes if you hurt yourself you feel it but what exactly is that feeling? Reality or Electricity?
Just thinking...
Let's Dance!
Let's sway!
Let's Swing!
Let's Dance
Peace out
~Rob
well i am going to have to think on that one but i know for sure that it was not because he was "lonely"
Even if we are greater than the angels (debateable), God still wasn't lonely so they're must be another reason. Any suggestions?
And as far as reality goes, I know that what the Bible says is true is at least part of the definition of reality.
I really hate typos!!!
We will (future tense) be greater then the angles.
Besides, the Bible could just be some elaborate computer program designed to keep humans in check and always wondering, "is there really something sinister and cosmic going on in the universe."
but of course that kind of feeling is perfectly normal paranoia...
Everyone in the universe gets that.
Well, good night then!
~Rob
Wow
The girls in 410 discussed this question after Moreland got us all riled up... : ) You could literally talk yourself in circles with it...
I believe that God created us to bring Him glory... of course Moreland's response for that would be "so God just created us to boost His ego?"
In response to that, I'd say that God knows that the only way we humans will have fullfillment and joy is by bringing him glory. So His purpose in creating us is not only for Him, but for us, in a way... does that make sense?
I don't pretend to comprehend these things entirely- just trying to think and spit out some thoughts...
As to reality- God is reality. To know God is to understand reality.
Amen!
I guess that makes sense...
God didn't create humans because He was lonely or because He wanted to boost His ego: He Created us because He loved us!
Wow!
~Rob
Here is some more Psyci for you
What is the "mind"? Where is the "mind"? How is it different from the "brain"?
Like the pre-Socratic naturalist philosophers, many people believe that the world, the cosmos, "life," "existence," etc., can be reduced ultimately to one final thing, or principle, or force, or deity. Why do you think this is so? Why can't everything be just that: everything?
Have fun
~Rob the Philosopher
Back to Hannah's Point:
So if I am understanding you correctly, God created us so that we could be fulfilled by bringing Him glory. But roughly (very roughly) 2/3 of the total human population reject Christ (or at least don't accept Him) and therefore don't end up bringing God a whole lot of glory and burn in hell for all eternity. So, if you're correct, then God created all of us with the foreknowledge that we would bring Him a little glory, feel good about it, and then 2/3 of us (by us I mean the total human population) get consumed by fire for eternity. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but something isn't working out here :)
Please note I'm not trying to be annoying, argumentative, or anything else like that. Just asking questions :) I wish we could all have this conversation face to face so as to utilize facial expressions, tones of voice, etc. This typing thing really limits effective communication ;-)
I think John that you not allowing yourself to thing four-dimensionally...
I mean, one reason why scientists believe the world evolved over a course of billions of years is because everything [NOW] takes FOREVER to happen when in fact it may of happened a lot faster just in the past...
Ever here of Entropy?
Second law of thermodynamics: Everything at some point in time will reach a state of destructive randomness.
So to make a long story short.
In the beginning God created man...
Man sinned, God forgave man...
Large part of the population rejects God reverts to total and absolute wickedness. God smites the earth with the flood; thus explaining why the earth looks so old. However, God saves Noah and family giving mankind another chance... Why? God's love; God's glory...
Later on...
Sodom and Gomorrah...
Brimstone and FIRE BALLS!!!
Salt pillars...
finally after a course of history of man honoring God and denying him
Man crucifies God...
Why?
Ironically, He did it for us to save us from our sins.
Now still we haven't made a whole lot of sense why bad things happen to good people and if God is so good why is there evil in the world?
Well, for one thing God didn't create talking dolls or robots.
He created human beings with a soul, destiny, and free will (debatable)...
And because of this--because of God's glory and love--has man created a unique relationship with the creator.
Key world unique...
I mean think about it...
You and I and everyone was given the opportunity to have a personal relationship with the creator!
And yes, there are those who can take it or leave it...
I'm just glad I made the right choice.
One more thing you have to consider is the end times when a pretty large amount comes to know God and saved during the seven year tribulation.
and we could go into the whole debate of whether or not God created wicked men for His purpose (which I do believe) but it's late...
Peace be with you.
~Rob
would the Anonymous commenter please reveal yourself. I don't mind being corrected, especially on this subject.
aaaaagh, i wanna go to summit!
Where have I been? Ya'll've (whoah double contraction! SWEET!) been having an awesome conversation without me!
Ok, I've got to go to bed so I don't have time to write a full response. But real quick, you seem to be abbreviating the sovereignty of God. You made the statement "I'm just glad I made the right choice." But did you really choose? I mean, God knew from the begginning of time those who were going to accept him and not. And I would even go so far as maybe to say he predestined certain ones. There are certain scriptures that can be interpreted no other way. So if he predesitined some to accept him that means he predestined some to burn in hell for eternity. Ok, got to go to bed. See ya'll at the dance tomorrow!!! I CAN'T WAIT!!!!
That is correct!
But I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not...
Basic point is that, yes, there is a pretty large amount most liking going to go to hell but if we're going to start talking about God's sovereignty that 2/3ds could of been a whopping 100% if it hadn't of been for God's grace.
You see, we all deserve noting better then eternal damnation but because of God's grace, we are able to live eternally with Him.
So since God is all knowing, he knew man would fall and he'd have to send His son to die for us right? Then why did create us? Our relationship with Him must very INCREDIBLY valuable to Him. Worth the death of His son and the damnation of millions. Wow...
See where I'm coming from?
Obviously we'll never fully understand everything now, but we do what we can. I mean,
We're only human...
This is our walk of life.
This is our walk of faith!
There's no way of knowing
There's no way of knowing
what is to come...
but I believe, yes, I believe!
That God died for you and me!!!
~Rob
Hmmm... I don't think that I phrased that well- let me try again...
God did not create us to make us "feel good" or to be happy- that's an effect of bringing God glory. In other words He did not create us to be fullfilled by bringing him glory- He created us to bring him glory and by doing so we are fullfilled.
As to the 2/3rds of the population dying in hell, it sounds like you're saying it's God's fault that people are in hell because he created them knowing that that would be the case.
God's plan is not for 2/3rds of the population to die- His plan is for all to have eternal life- unfortuatly because of the free will He has given us we can choose to disobey his plans for us.
John: Yes, I understand- I have no problem with my thoughts being critiqued. That's how I think and learn... However, I'd like to hear YOUR take on the question at hand...: )
Yea John!
So, Hannah...
I don't think we've been formally introduced...
Kind of hard when you can't see each other face to face, but at any rate to make my intro short and sweet
I am an Oakley and a Child of God!
Who's name happens to be Robert who happens to be 17 and the eldest of four brothers and one sister.
anything else you want to know just click my pic and my profile will be revealed.
But to get to my point,
are (we) on the same page?
I may have phrased words in a strange way to...
If you think about when God hardened Pharo's heart, that was indeed an act of God for the salvation of the chosen people.
But we have several points of view at hand.
Cause and effect
Freewill
or...
Destiny.
Here is an interesting concept to ponder on...
Perhaps man does choose, but what if his choice has already been made? Then the next and only thing a man can do is to take the steps in trying to understand that choice...
Does that make sense?
Man has no free will God has ordained everytning we do before all eternity. And he can do whatever he wants since hes God. If that means that people go to hell than so be it. Hes God.. he doesn't have to have a reason. And if you have real faith then you wont question his reasons. (I am not saying yall don't have real faith.) I am the anony person on all the above comments, Darby
OK first off, any and all opinions expressed above are not accurate depictions of my true beliefs, I was just (sometimes) taking the opposite side everyone else was for the sake of arumentation.
I will tell you what I think about it when I get home from the Real Estate seminar tonight
My personal take on the deal is kinda twofold:
1) Like Darby was saying, God is Sovereign, He can do whatever he stinkin' wants to! Who am I, a mere mortal, to question His divine reasoning with my debased, carnal, mortal, limited, pathetic, little mind?!?! The pot can't argue with the potter :)
2) God is Love. God defines love. He is the most sincere devout true genuine form of love. Before Humans, there was just the triune God, Father Son and Holy Spirit. While there was probably love within that relationship, I think (here I go thinking again with my limited mortal mind :) that God saw an opportunity to express more genuine unconditional love through the creation of mankind. So,
He created us,
gave us some rules to live by
we broke every stinking one of them
yet, then he had the opportunity to express true, genuine, heartfelt, I'll-love-you-no-matter-what-you-do-and-there's-nothing-you-can-do-about-it love.
So, in an act of the most true love ever, He sent His only son to take the punishment for our sin and enjoy a realtionship with those that would accept His gift.
Hence the reason for man
We could go on and on about the sovereignty of God and whether God chose us or we chose Him. And while I personally kind of tend to err towards the "God chose us" side of things, I don't think it's a concept that our little crippled human minds can understand. Kind of like the concept of eternity.
That's kind of how I feel about it, ya'll feel free to take it apart set it all out and stomp all over it. Let me know what you think.
Sounds GREAT! Amen!
AMEN!
john could you get some bible verses to back that up?
Ya!
We finally come to a conclusion...
But it really all comes down to the fact that our simple minds can do nothing more but wonder...
It's fun to think what if, but I would have to agree now...
God chose us!
There is this really neat book series by Paul E. Little...
One of the books is titled
"Know why you believe"
Check it out and give me some input of what you think about the author and if you've heard of him...
Take care everyone,
~Rob
Jaron: Which point? I can get tons of verses for point number one. The only thing I can think of for point number two are all the ones about "God is Love."
I'm reading this book right now called "The Sovereignty of God" by Arthur Pink and it is DIE HARD Calvanism. I mean, God predestined some to go to heaven, and some to go to burn in hell, Christ died for the elect ONLY, and the Holy Spirit ministers only to the elect. LOL Not sure I'm quite willing to take it that far, but it is interesting.
YEEEEAAA....
"only THE elected ones may enter..."
Well,
I won't even type what I was thinking...
but you get the idea...
*Real BIG grin*
~Rob
Pick another topic!! This is fun!
Whoa...this is confusing...I'm a little late though, seeing yall have already come up with a conclusion. Perhaps I'll join in alittle on the next one.
Kakiedoo
john: all the points.
Ok, I don't have time tonight, and I'm working tomorrow. Maybe I'll have time Wednesday. I will do it though.
P.S. You are high maintenance ;)
Okay...
this maybe any easy one for y'all but picture this...
You're ministering to a country who's government absolutely forbids religion and any attempt to challenge such authority is punishable by death...
You're head coordinator of the bible smuggling team and you hear a knock at the door of your alias house hold. You are known as mr. (mrs.) white...
Note: You have marital status.
The knock at your door happens to be the government authority
and thy ask,
"Are you smuggling bibles?"
Now if you answer "yes" then you loose your dearly beloved wife(husband)
if you answer "no"
then you are noted as a liar and a breaker of "God's" Law...
What do you do?
~Rob
If someone elses life is at stake I would definately lie to save them. Especially if they are a wife, child, close person ect.
TC
I don't like those kind of questions...
Avoid the question!
Example:
"Now why would you think I'm smuggling Bibles?"
(Said very sarcastically) Oh yeah, I'm smuggling Bibles and I'm gonna sit here and TELL you that I'm smuggling Bibles so you can kill my wife"
Etc.
Just don't answer yes or no.
Those questions are soooo...bleh...I like Johns answer...just don't say yes or no.Although...you're bound to get to that point sometime....
Kakiedoo
uh you probably have to answer them. yes or no. but i would defiantly say no.
Ask God for forgiveness, and tell a big hairy lie.
Well since the Bible doesn't say "thou shalt not lie" but instead "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" and since nobody could be hurt by your lying, then you should definitely lie. Let me ask you this? Did Rahab do a good thing by lying? Of course. Darby P.S. I am still wondering who "yo g" is so I can go to that persons blog and yell at them cause I don't go to Ryans anymore. darby maeve
I'm Back!!
OK...
So John, You're saying that God created us to express love, right? I'd agree with that, but I'm not sure it's the whole story... like you said, perhaps our human minds just can't grasp it.
Am I the only one who does not agree that man has no free will?
Just wondering... : )
Re: the lie question- that's tough-
I'd say "no"...
But I'm not sure if that's right...
I mean, Rahab lied to protect the Israelite spies, The Israelite midwives lied to pharaoh, etc... and those lies obviously had positive results.
But God's 10 commandments state that lying is wrong, and I would take that to mean that NOT TELLING THE TRUTH is always wrong, right? So is it OK to tell a lie if the "end justifies the means"? Or to just decieve or avoid the question? Or to lie to protect the lives of others?
Would it be OK if those same soldiers asked "are you a Christian?" and you said "no" to protect the lives of your family, thereby renouncing Christ? If so, than lots of martyrs throughout history have died needlessly...
Rob: Yes, nice to "meet" you. ahem. I'm Hannah, 18, 2nd oldest of 7 and a misplaced Texan trying to survive in the frozen northland. : )
Well, you know what they say, "once a Texan always a Texan!" BUURRRR...
Wonderful to meet you!
I think God gives us some space to make choices...
I mean if I choose to a have a chocolate latte double shot tall is that the will of God? or was it my choice???
But of course that particular concept is a little different then what we're talking about...
I believe in some free will but when God feels the need to step in and intervene, you bet He's going to do what ever it takes.
PB and J with banana please!
Choice? Cause and Effect? or...
Destiny?
~Rob
Well it is "your choice" but God before the beginning of time had already ordained that that was what you were going to do. And I say again, the 9th commandment does not say "Thou shalt not lie" it says "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" so in some instances lying is ok. I am not saying its always a good thing but sometimes it is neccesary.(sp?) darby
Hannah: I'm with you on that one. I think God had to give man some free will in order to make praise and glorification genuine. I mean, praise coming from a robot with no free will isn't true genuine praise, it's just the robot doing what it was programmed to do. Somewhere our free will crosses over into God's sovereignty. Now quite sure where that is though.
Not* in the last sentence.
hmmm, Darby i think I'm gonna have to disagree. your neighbor is everybody (parable of the good Samaritan) and lying is bearing false witness. i think i'm gonna read on Jesus' life alittle and see exactly how he handled that kinda question.
I think we should get our dads (or moms) in this conversation! I'd like to hear some of their views and convictions.
~MJ~
I know my Dad has some pretty cool outlooks to life!
It would be SWEET if our parents got involved!!!
Let's do it!
~Rob
I agree.Its okay to lie if its for a good cause. And if its going to have a good...ending or outcome or whatever.
I also agree to getting our parents in the conversation.
Kakiedoo
WO WO WO!!! Ok, clarification, just because something is a good cause doesn't mean it's ok to lie about it. The end does NOT justify the means! I don't exactly know whether or not it would be ok to lie, ever, but if it ever was ok, it would be VERY rare.
How come I don't believe there is 78 comments on this...
I haven't forgotten about those verses Jaron, just been super busy.
ok.
Hey Missy I just got a Facebook too. Can you like invite me or whatever to see yours? My e-mail is reillysbigsis@aol.com P.S. Robby if you see this can you e-mail me too? I have a couple of ?s about the film festival. Thanks!
Sure! Whats your last name again?
~MJ~
Darby Maeve Sproul
Alright Jaron, here's a handful of verses:
Point number 1: God is Sovereign, who am I to question God.
Dan. 4:35
35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing;
He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?”
Rev. 4:11
11 “ You are worthy, O Lord,To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things, And by Your good pleasure they are and were created.”
Rom. 9:20-23
20 "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory"
Point Number 2: God is Love
1 John 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
Rom. 5:8
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
Ok Darby! I sent you a request on facebook!
~MJ~
I just got it! Thanks! Do any of the rest of you guys have one? I sent one to Brooke also. ttyl darby
I do, I'll request you. So do JC and Jaron.
Ok, new topic if anyone is still interested:
"Is it possible for a person to lose their salvation?"
The only rule is that anything you say MUST be supported by scripture in the proper context. So don't say anything if you can't back it up with applicable, supportive scripture in the proper context.
We already had that conversation. Could you pick a different one please?
~MJ~
What? When? Was I there? I'm just curious because I can't think of any verses off the top of my head that say a person cannot lose their salvation.
We had it on the HBF blog.
~MJ~
Look at the March 16 post...
Yea you missed it.. It wasn't very long. Lets do it again.
I just read that post...
Yea, It would appear that we would just get the exact same consensus unless someone we don't know pops in...
Once a Christian always a Christian!
Hey Darby!
I Got you message...
O! and I got a FACE BOOK
Cool right?
I'm gonna email me now so you can ask me those questions...
TTYl
D.A.R.B.Y
~Rob
Ok, not only was the other discussion very short, but there were NO supporting verses. Where in the Bible does it say a person can't lose their salvation? While I haven't personally looked, I can't remember ever coming across one.
Where does it say we CAN???
~Rob
I seem to be unable to tpey sghriat...
Type Straight...
ese ouy ltare
B~Or
First of all, if it doesn't say we can't lose it, then I would assume it's possible to lose it.
Second of all:
Heb. 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
2 Peter 2:20-22
"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end (damned having never been saved) is worse than the beginning (damned after once being saved). For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
Gal. 5:4
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
(Once again, all above statements do not necesarily reflect my personal beliefs, just trying to have a good friendly educational debate)
:) :) :) :) :)
But John! It's kind of hard to believe a ,quote on quote, "real" Christan is capable of doing such things
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, all things have become new. I Corinthians 5:17 ...
If we are new creations then to a sense we are no longer dogs but reborn through Christ; therefore, making incredibly difficult to turn back to our old ways. Not saying it's impossible just saying it all depends on the heart of the matter.
By the way, is it possible for someone with alzheimer's to lose (forget) their salvatoin?
I don't believe it is because the brain is no more different then my big toe as far as body parts go. It's just another member that is going to turn to dust, but my soul, on the other hand, is eternal!
And by God's Grace and the blood of Christ shall it dwell forever more in heaven!
Amen.
Not bashing you. I know you're just making a point and don't hold to these veiws, but I'm going to be as critical as possible when it comes to answering these questions.
~The Renaissance Man
Nah, your good :)
So your saying it's impossible for a "quote on quote, "real" Christan" to willfully sin? (Heb. 10 26-27) I disagree, if a person get's saved but then slips back into a habitual sin, would that not be willfully sinning? Now I agree with you it may be rare, you said yourself " Not saying it's impossible". So if it's not impossible, then it is possible, correct?
Plus, when Paul, John, and whoever wrote Hebrews wrote their letters, they were writing them to CHRISTIANS. Why would they talk/warn their audience about losing slavation (aka "no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" -Heb. 10:26-27- "falling away from grace" -Galations 5:4-) if it were not possible for this to happen?
Grace, grace, grace...
You hear this over and OVER and OVER
again is some churches...
I think they wrote this to remind Christians to hold true to their comment to Christ.
There are several steps to consider.
One: The realization and acceptance that we are siners and the only redemption we have is by blood.
(God's shedding of the animals to clothe Adam and Eve)
God gave us an eternal sacrifice: Jesus Christ Broken body and shed blood.
By God's grace and sacrifice are we redeemed from the [Power] of sin.
We were never freed from the [Presence of sin]
This day will come only till Christ return or the day we die.
The next step is sanctification: this is indeed a great hill of difficulty and we all have burdens on our back but we've been given a promise, we've been given hope, we've been given freedom form the power of sin, and we have become reborn in Christ!
So my brother, I find it difficult to naturally choose to sin
Through sanctification do we fall and rise up again, and by God's covenant will we receive freedom of the presence of sin and glorification through either death and resurrection or by Christ return.
Wasn't it Paul who said, " I want to do right but I continue to do wrong?"
and Peter denied Christ three times but fell to his knees greatly grieved and repentant of it.
Moses was a murder and did many wicked things but obviously made it to haven considering his appearance in the new testament.
But than again you can't say that the above are "habitual" sins...
~Rob
Ok, first off, you say "I think they (Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews) wrote this to remind Christians to hold true to their comment (I'm assuming that's supposed to be "commitment") to Christ." If this were the case, why wouldn't they just say "Stay true to your commitment to Christ." Why would they say something is possible when it isn't possible just to "encourage" their audience to hold fast. Sounds like a scare tactic to me. I don't think they would do such a thing. If they say it's possible, it's possible.
Second, your point(s) about the salvation road and Christians sinning. I agree with you completely. Just because a Christian sins doesn't mean he loses his salvation (Thank God!!!) Those points you made about Peter and Moses and Paul all apply here. Sanctification is the process of becoming more Christ-like and we're going to trip and fall during that process.
BUT like you said at the end: "But than again you can't say that the above are "habitual" sins..." Exactly! I'm not talking about trip and fall, repent, etc. sins. I'm talking about willful, habitual, know-its-wrong-but-do-it-anyway-over-and-over-and-over-again kind of sins. I would probably say it's impossible for quote un-quote "mature" Christians like you and probably anyone else reading this to lose their salvation. I'm talking about "baby" Christians who might accept Christ at a retreat or a camp or something like that but then later they reject Christ and turn back to their sinful ways. Just like the seed that was thrown among the rocks, sprouted quickly, and then died in the parable of the sower.
Just for good measure, let's throw one more aspect in there. I think we would all agree in the existence of demons and their influence in the physical world. I think we would also agree that sometimes demons will "attack" or try to mess with Christians. Job is an excellent example of this. So my point is: why would demons even mess with Christians if it was impossible to win back their souls? Why wouldn't they just concentrate all their efforts on keeping the unsaved unsaved :)
-John
P.S. I have yet to hear of a verse that specifically says a Christian can't lose their salvation.
Baby Christians...
Well,
One cannot be forgiven of their short comings unless they are truly
[Repentant] of their sins.
It's one thing to bow your head and say, "I believe in you and I'm sorry"
You have to understand and acknowledge that your are a SINNER and deserve nothing but death!
I know a few "mature" christens that struggle with alcohol; explain what God thinks of them.
~Rob
ok i was told this was a teological debate i don't think so cause none of you do or can know the awnser and you all basicly agree i talked to zach about that tonight it was nice i hate it when people discuss this stuff cause there is no awnser or right conclusion it is just personal conviction and you just need to know what you believe on a topic like this based on scripture i think it is pointless to talk about this cause it is not a subject you can conclude on that is just my view ;)
oh yeah robbie god can use any one he wants even if they do struggle with bad stuff there still his kids and he loves them and uses them to do great things. like God used a prostetute to save israel in jericho! so i hate it when people say like god can't use you to do amazing things cause your not a virgin or you struggle achohol or something like that
Peter - It is true that there is no definate way (excluding divine intervention, of course) of knowing the answers to these questions. Nonetheless, we need to be fully prepared and know what and why we believe what we believe. John is playing the devil's advocate (or is he right? :D)so as to challenge our foundation of belief. It's very possible that we will run against people who will ask us these questions, and it will be great to already have discussed it and have ready answers! And I don't think Robby meant that God can't use scum-of-the-earth sinners to do great things. Not to mention, if you're doing debate, these discussions are a huge opportunity for you!
John - "27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; NEITHER SHALL ANYONE SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10
Also - I want it known that, like John, what I say here doesn't necessarily reflect my personal beliefs!
Amen Brooke!
I love that passage!!!
Can we conclude then that we've accomplished our goal to become better equipped for future discusion when it comes time to defend our faith?
Cause this is getting old...
But it 's still fun to discuss!
~Rob
Ah, finally, a verse. And a great one at that. Well said Brooke.
Yeah I'm good with ending this discussion.
Oh BTW I got my verses from this guy: http://bible-knowledge.com/Lose-Your-Salvation.html
The guy looks like a quack from the little bit that I read. Read all about it if you want. I just skimmed it and picked out his verses.
Ok I posted 3 comments in this discussion and none of them have showed up!!! I have spent like 2 hours total making those comments and there not here!!!! I'm so annoyed!!!!
Dude, bummer for you.
i agree with missy yall talk about the same loose your salvation topic all the time
Name 3 other places buddy. :):) ;)
It's an interesting topic Peter! You would not believe all the verses supporting "you CAN lose your salvation," whereas before I always believed you can't... I'm now unsure... and no, it was not a result of this topic, but my own thoughts. Very interesting...
You, Sir Debate, should join us!! Any topic suggestions?
Indeed, I believe the Church is memorizing a certain passage in which it states something to the effect of: "Any branch that does not bear fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth."
John, if your going to quote our memory passage, please do it in the NKJV as that is the version we are learning it in. It simplifies things.
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
"into the fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth" is SOOOO much better than just "burned"
The point is made, you needn't resort to eloquent language to solidify your point.
wow i've been out of it for awhile. is there a new topic coming soon?
Name it... better yet.. MISSY NEW POST
yea yea... one day when I get more time...
I understand... will wait patiently. :)
eloquent language is not necessary to support my point, but I think you, of all people, will agree that it does add an educated and persuasive attribute to the argument.
i think using firm simple words makes a arguement more firm, agressive, an self confident. not confusing and show off sounding like your trying to show how smart you are, that doesn't always make you sound intellegent. i make it short, firm, and sweet.
to be convincing your audience needs to clearly understand what your POINT is NOT that you can use some big word they don't understand correctly. you come across as confusing and imposing not clear and firm. just and opinion
it depends on your audience and their vocabulary level. often large uncommon words are more descriptive and can be more accurate than short common words. so, if you have an educated audience capable of comprehending complex vocabulary, it is better to use said vocabulary since your point of view will be more accurately potrayed and conveyed. but like you said, if you're audience has no idea what you're saying, then your wasting your time talking to them and should use short easy words.
i disagree, it comes across as if your trying rely on using a big intimidating vocabulary to make you seem superior, not that your point is stronger. almost like your trying to hide behind big words (which i know your not) it is conveyed to the audience like that. and alot of times like for example myself, i know what most of the big words yall use MEAN but when you hear/read a "speech" where every word is from the 18th century slang it can quickly blurr your point and the audience has a hard time connecting to your piont then you lose their focus
UNLESS your audience is accustomed to hearing and using such language. You are only "hiding behind big words" if your point is not a good one. Otherwise you are just using "big words" to help communicate your point, since they tend to be much more descriptive and accurate than common simple words. Consider my original point.
Which is better?
1) and they are burned.
2) and they are cast into the fire where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Obviously the second one is much more descriptive and communicates better the visual description of hell. So, if you're audience is not capable of comprehending "big words" then you are forced to use option number one above. However, if you are fortunate enough to have a well learned audience that has a high vocabulary level, than you are able to use option number two above which will more accurately depict your point.
y'all need something else to argue about.
ugg... I think I'm going to get a B in my English 1302 class. I know one can't be good at everything, but I'm gonna miss my 3.97 GPA. :( I hate enlgish, I hate writing, and I hate my lousy vocabulary. blah...
sorry yall. Maybe feeling a little frustrated here? :)
~MJ~
Hey Missy- a B is better than a C (or a D or an F for that matter...) Be optimistic! : )
Definately! I'm sure you're gonna beat the average.
And your right, this topic is getting old.
What topic? yer "Eloquent Speech" is better or wutever topic? I agree that topic is a gettin' pretty darn old. So yea missy you really need to get a new post on here or I ain't gunna visit your blog anymore...
OMG!!!! Yall have managed to make over 130 replies on this post.
lol.
TC
You hate English???? If you ever need help - call me up. I LOVE ENGLISH!!!!! VOCABULARY, GRAMMAR, PAPERS,SPELLING, ELOQUENCE, STYLE!!! *sigh*
no dear, this kinda english ain't fun. gotta read all these rotten depressin stories with bad language in em, and then you got ta WRITE about them. yall know I hate writing, but when I got ta write about that junk, I REALLY hate it.
i used bad grammer and spelling on purpose. Kinda like dissin english to its face. :)
I'M SO READY FOR THANKSGIVING BREAK!!!!
~MJ~
I'll make a new post soon. Like maybe on Monday or Tuesday or somethin
Its SUNDAY!!!!!
what about it?? And why are you on at 10:11 on a sunday? Shouldn't you be at church? :)
The time thingy must be screwed up - I was at church. :)
IT'S TUESDAY!!!!!!!
Yep - I checked. Right now it's 8:42 at my house, and the thing says 9:42... tisk tisk.
I CAN'T WAIT TIL FRI AND SAT!!!
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